BJ COLE & MICHAEL
MESSER
‘THAT SLIDING SOUND’
INTERVIEW – ACOUSTIC MAGAZINE
Interview by
Russell Welton
– Acoustic Magazine - April 2009
RW – Russell Elton / BJ – BJ Cole / MM –
Michael Messer
The Hawaiian
guitar came to mainland USA in the early years of the twentieth Century when all
the strands of American popular music were coming together; and they were all
influenced by ‘that sliding sound’. The early cowboy balladeers were the first
to fall, influenced not only by the Hawaiian
guitar, but also by the woozy crooning
Hawaiian
vocal style. The influence of the Hawaiian
guitar at that time was so powerful that it cut across many musical & cultural
boundaries. For example in the blues, the influence of
Hawaiian
guitar and an African instrument called the ‘diddley-bow’ provided the basis for
delta blues bottleneck guitar playing.
In the 1930s, the steel guitar started to influence the sound of
swing music through the pioneering work of such bandleaders and innovators as
Alvino Rey, Bob Wills and Spade Cooley. The growing demands made by such
harmonically complex styles of music dictated the further evolution of the
electric steel guitar, and ushered in the innovation of the pedal steel guitar.
The further development of the pedal steel was initially dictated by
the demands of the country music industry. It wasn’t until the late 1960’s that
steel & slide guitar broke free from their musical and cultural straightjackets,
and began to be used in a much more eclectic way. It was an era when musical
boundaries were being broken down and the pedal steel, slide guitar and Dobro
became a major part of the sound of American popular music.
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RW – Can you talk about the common thread both you and BJ share as part of your mutual appreciation for both the origins of slide playing and also its heritage?
BJ – The root of it all for both Michael & me is that we are fascinated with the sound of steel and slide guitar in all its forms.
RW – What first got you into
it?
BJ – ‘Sleepwalk’ by Santo & Johnny. It was a minor
UK
hit in 1962. That of course was an electric steel guitar. The demarcation
between the electric steel guitar & the acoustic steel guitar is not as defined
as it is with regular electric & acoustic guitars. When amplification came along
in the early 1930’s it offered players more volume, tone and sustain. It’s not
surprising they were queuing round the block to obtain the new instruments. It’s
only recently, with the development of more powerful PA systems that players
have had the luxury to return to the more intimate sound of acoustic slide and
steel guitar. I first discovered acoustic steel guitar in the 1960s when I heard
Josh Graves playing Dobro on Flatt & Scruggs records. I was not aware of
acoustic Hawaiian steel guitar until relatively recently.
RW – What was your first instrument?
BJ – It was a Dallas Rangemaster six string electric lap steel guitar. I sold my train set to buy it!
RW – What turned you on to
pedal steel guitar?
BJ – It was a record called ‘Nashville Steel Guitar’ on London/Starday
Records. A compilation of the pedal & non pedal steel wizards of the time; Pete
Drake, Don Helms, Herb Remington, Jimmy Day, Roy Wiggins. There was a big
picture of Pete Drake playing a Pedal Steel on the cover. I was blown away - I
didn’t even know one existed at the time. That was the record that showed me
what pedal steel guitar was all about. I started listening to loads
of country records to find out more. It wasn’t long before I found out about
such greats as Buddy Emmons, Curley Chalker and Jerry Byrd. My first pedal steel
was a Fender 1000. I ordered it from Selmer in
London, at great expense to
my parents.
RW – Michael, what was your
first awareness of slide or steel guitar?
MM – It was in the early 1960s hearing Brian Jones on Rolling Stones
records. Rory Gallagher with Taste, Jeremy Spencer in Fleetwood
Mac, Alan Wilson in Canned
Heat. Sam Mitchell on Rod
Stewart records and his own solo stuff…I guess those were the first records that
turned me on to the style. But it was really a little later when I started
listening to what we now call roots music that really set me off and started my
obsession. Robert Johnson, Blind Willie Johnson, Elmore James, Muddy Waters,
Johnny Winter, Ry Cooder. Early JJ Cale records with Josh Graves playing Dobro,
Weldon
Myrick playing pedal steel and Mac Gayden playing electric slide with a wah-wah
pedal. In those early days of discovering steel & slide guitar I kind of lumped
the whole thing together in one category. I was obsessed with all things slide
and during the 1970s I bought every record I could find that had a photo of
National guitars, lap steel guitars, pedal steel guitars…etc. This obsessive
record buying introduced me to many forms of music and slide guitar playing.
My first trip to Nashville was in 1979 and it was there that I was first exposed
to country Dobro playing. I met the legendary Bashful Brother Oswald backstage
at the Ryman Auditorium and he showed me how to play his classic ‘Dobro Chimes’.
I also met and watched some of the great pedal steel players on that visit, one
of which was Buddy Emmons.
In the early 1980s I used to go to Southall to eat Indian food and soak up the culture – it was there in ABC Records that I discovered the music of the great Indian slide guitarist, Brij Bhushan Kabra. Then around that time the world music boom was in full swing & I turned on to King Sunny Adé, Chief Commander Ebenezer Obey, Dele Abiudun…I was going crazy with all this steel & slide guitar stuff! …Fred Frith, Henry Kaiser, Gabby Pahinui…etc.
RW – I am interested to know how both of you have spread your appreciation and application of your music in individual paths regarding the genres you enjoy but also how your project 'That Sliding Sound' is an expression of slide music that is not just limited by genre but also involves your improvisational approach to slide playing?
BJ - It is largely about how we are applying our respective instruments outside of the traditional context that one normally hears those instruments. Although we are both very passionate about and do play those traditional styles.
MM – I think our musical relationship is based on the fact that neither of us see our respective instruments just as tools to express one particular style of music. BJ is well known for playing all kinds of music on the pedal steel; as well as the generic country and Hawaiian steel guitar sound, BJ plays classical, hip-hop, jazz, folk and avant-garde, to name a few! Equally, I am happy to play bottleneck and lap steel guitar in any type of music that I can. It was that approach that got me known in world & roots music circles when I first started recording.
BJ – One has to base ones enthusiasm on what exists and obviously those stereotypes do have a foundation of truth, because pedal steel was largely made popular through country music and bottleneck became known through delta blues playing. But as far as pedal steel is concerned, that is the beginning. The instrument was developed with many strings and pedals to encompass a lot of harmonic possibilities and therefore should be capable of playing in any style of music, and that is what I have been trying to achieve throughout my career. I just refuse to allow musical limitations and assumptions to get in the way.
MM – What BJ has just said is why I have so much respect for what he does. I first BJ’s pedal steel playing on Elton John’s ‘Tiny Dancer’ and I think it was at that point I began to appreciate what both BJ and pedal steel guitar in the right hands, is capable of doing. I feel the same about bottleneck slide and six string lap steel guitar playing, but I am also aware of the fact that with only six strings and no pedals, there are certain harmonic limitations and certainly electric slide guitar sits closer to a horn than it does to a pedal steel. I have never seen slide or steel guitar as just a blues, country, Hawaiian or rock instrument. I think discovering early acoustic Hawaiian steel guitar music from the 1920s & 30s opened my mind to its possibilities. Suddenly I was hearing slide/steel guitar playing hot jazz solos, novelty tunes, and covering pop classics of the time. Sol Hoopii, King Benny Nawahi, Bob Pauole, Sam Ku West – these guys could & did play in so many different styles. It is that approach which I learnt from studying those musicians that showed me how I could apply a six string slide or steel guitar to so many different styles of music. Then discovering the music of people like Brij Bhushan Kabra, King Sunny Adé and Debashish Bhattacharya opened my mind even more.
BJ – It is a huge subject that our brief in this interview cannot hope to cover. It is a subject that we have both dedicated our lives to and could easily fill a whole issue of this magazine!
RW – Talk to me about how your project 'That Sliding Sound' is an expression of slide music that is not just limited by genre but also involves your improvisational approach to slide playing?
BJ – It is not really about improvisation. The thing about ‘That Sliding Sound’ is that for the first time it is an inclusive survey of all aspects of steel and slide guitar. In addition, it puts the different styles of amplified and un-amplified steel & slide guitar together in a concert situation for the first time and explores the possibilities within these unique combinations. Observing of course the reasons why these instruments would never have been heard together before.
MM – There are probably very few pedal steel guitarists that would turn up at my house with a ‘Clangers’ CD – equally, there are very few blues slide guitarists that would want to hear it!
BJ – I am convinced about a very important point that we have both discussed before. Michael and I came to appreciate the generic musical styles associated with our respective instruments via our passion for the instruments themselves, not via the music. In other words, it was the steel guitar that turned me on to country music and it was bottleneck slide guitar that turned Michael on to delta blues. This leaves us unpartisan about how we apply our playing. That is where we differ from so many other players and that is possibly the most important statement of this interview.
MM – I totally agree with BJ on this point and cannot stress enough how much my passion and obsession for all things slide-related has steered my musical course.
BJ – Both Michael & I feel no barrier about moving forward from what has been achieved in country, Hawaiian & blues with the steel & slide guitar because we only learnt about those musical styles to explore the instruments and their possibilities. It was not the other way around. We both believe that is what unites us and it is that attitude that enables us to be more objective about the whole subject of steel and slide guitar and to view the subject from a different perspective to most other players.
RW – Can you give me some information about your playing styles and techniques which have been honed over time. What tools you use. Perhaps any advice on vibrato and accuracy with intonation for example?
BJ – I use a plastic tortoiseshell thumb pick and three metal fingerpicks. Most pedal steel and slide guitarists use two fingerpicks. For pedal steel I use a round bullet-shaped steel which is standard for 10 string Pedal Steel. Incidentally, the name ‘Steel Guitar’ comes from the tool used to play the instrument. Contrary to popular belief, it has nothing to do with a metal-bodied National guitar.
MM – For both bottleneck slide and lap steel I use a heavy plastic Dunlop thumb pick and two fingerpicks. For all forms of lap steel playing on Dobro, National and electric lap steels I use a regular size heavy 6 ounce Tribotone Hawaiian bullet. For bottleneck slide playing I use heavy 4.5 ounce steel and glass slides on my resonator guitars, and a slightly lighter glass slide for playing electric. The more mass, the better the tone and sustain.
BJ – Sustain and vibrato are very important to all forms of steel and slide playing. The technique with the left hand is actually very sophisticated. Good intonation and tone takes a long time to develop. The only advice I can give to students of this instrument is to practice and persevere. Vibrato, sustain and tone are the areas that take the longest to master.
MM – I am with BJ on the subject of mastering the left hand. It takes a long time and only very few players master the art of it. Intonation, beautiful vibrato and great tone are everything to me. I am not impressed by fast runs. The only steel & slide players that impress me are ones with great tone, and as I said, there are very few. Tone and touch are everything with this instrument. As BJ says, practice and develop your vibrato, intonation and tone.
BJ – Touch & tone. It comes back to that every time. Jerry Byrd and Buddy Emmons are THE masters of everything we are talking about.
MM – Touch & tone – in the bottleneck slide guitar world I would put Ry Cooder and Blind Willie Johnson up there as THE masters. In addition I have to add that for me the great exponents of ‘touch & tone’ on the acoustic lap steel guitar were the acoustic Hawaiian steel guitar masters, Sol Hoopii and Bob Pauole. For me, they are the ultimate players.
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